This Operatic madness must not succeed

By Oli on Friday, 14th December 2007. More information. Comments.

It's an Opera of gigantic proportions with the company behind the, err, Opera browser whinging to the European Commission that Microsoft shouldn't be allowed to include their browser IE with Windows.

Yesterday the browser maker Opera cried wolf submitting a complaint to the European Commission saying that Microsoft, through their dominant desktop prevalence/monopoly have an unfair advantage with Internet Explorer (IE) that is both unfair to their customers and the web as a whole.

By tying its Internet Explorer product to its monopoly Windows operating system and refusing to faithfully implement industry-accepted open standards, Microsoft deprives consumers of a real choice in internet browsers -- ECIS lawyer Thomas Vinje

I've let this settle for a good 24 hours before chucking my penny's worth in. In short: I think Opera's complaint cannot be allowed to be upheld, but0 it probably will, mainly because the EU seems to hate Microsoft.

Bill Gates vs US DoJ

This is nothing new for Microsoft. They've been through this with the US Department of Justice over bundling IE with Windows 95. They've also fought with the EU over Windows Media Player (WMP) amongst other things.

The root of all this fuss is over Microsoft having dominant market share, a situation they've found themselves in after two decades of wheeling-n-dealing. I can't defend Microsoft's iffy business practices but they've managed to do what every business would like to; but they're here now; most of you use their operating system on a daily basis.

Opera wants Microsoft to unbundle IE from Windows (must like WMP in EU copies of Windows) or install other browsers to give the user a choice. Furthermore, Opera wants Microsoft to be forced to adhere to web-authoring standards. At first glances, Opera appears to be a little crabby that after years of singing the right song, they're still in last place when it comes to users. It goes: IE6, IE7, Firefox, Safari, then Opera.

For the past year or so Opera lovers have quoted superior rendering and standards adherence as a good reason to use Opera over other browsers but the fact is, as somebody who is constantly dibbling around with cross-browser CSS positioning, form elements and javascript, I can tell you first-hand that Opera has just as many non-standard quirks, often so damaging or irregular that Opera remains unsupported. Anyway, let's skip over this web-developer's complaints...

How does the bundling of IE with Windows limit people's choice? It doesn't. You're not forced at gunpoint or otherwise to use IE (anymore) in order to use yuor Windows computer. This wasn't the case with Windows 95 (and parts of 80, 2000 and even XP) where Explorer (the file-management tool) and Internet Explorer were essentially the same thing. With Vista, if you choose not to use IE as your default browser all URL requests can be routed to another browser — even if you stuff the URL into an Explorer window.

It would be immeasurably idiotic!

You could argue that people need to use IE that first time to download their browser of choice and that's true (unless you bring the installer in via offline/local-networked routes) but forcing MS to include every browser is a complete pain in the arse; it would swell Windows installs into multi-DVD hogs because if you had to do this with Browsers, you'd have to do the same with games, email clients, chat clients, telnet clients and servers. You would essentially need every version of every type of application MS included with Windows. It would be immeasurably idiotic!

Just what the hell does this mean for Apple?! They bundle their media player, their iTunes store, their DV editing software, amongst many other apps all in an incredibly tight cohesive mesh. If this complaint is upheld again Microsoft, it won't be long before OSX is torn apart.

I see the web-standards argument but from a liberties point of view, I just can't agree that a public body could see itself fit to legally mandate what standards browser-companies adhere to. This isn't an irreversible monopoly — the tide is already turning with millions of internet users flocking to Firefox and Safari, some of those, like yours truly, people dodging Windows completely in favour or alternate operating systems.

I'm sorry Opera but you're not targeting the issue here — it's not Microsoft's fault that nobody* knows about your browser. If you want to fix this, you need to stop people having Windows forced on them by manufacturers when they buy new PCs. Lobby for unbundling of operating systems so people have the choice to go Linux/BSD/etc if they want. I'm willing to bet you'd probably find some real evidence of anti-competitive practices too.

Grav

Written by Oli on Friday, 14 December 2007. Tagged with microsoft, opera, ie, windows. Read 3468 times. If you liked it, please give it a digg.

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#1 /* 2 years, 3 months ago */
I think you got it wrong.

The EU Commission doesn't hate Microsoft; it's just that antitrust law in the EU is different from what it is in the US. Part of what EU antitrust law is about is that it's forbidden to leverage monopolies of one market into another through abusive practices. Microsoft has a dominant market position in the desktop market, and it bundles a browser with its desktop OS, then makes that browser behave sufficiently differently from standards and other browsers to force (strongly motivate) users to use it over competing products. This, I think, constitutes an "abuse of dominant market position" (not unlike in the case with Samba).

The problem is not only that IE is bundled with Windows; it's also that it doesn't follow standards but "innovates on top of them", as Microsoft would put it. This isn't much of a deal for a browser that doesn't have a dominant market position, because you can just stop using it and use something else. However, if the dominant browser deviates from the standards, web developers (as I'm sure you'd know) start to implement stuff so that it works in IE, and often disregard or expend less effort on support for other browsers. Opera's complaint is partly about this behaviour, and if Microsoft could be forced to adhere to open standards for a change, the world would be a better place not only because it would be easier to create websites but also because the consumer would have _real_ choice (which they currently don't necessarily have, because IE-only sites restrict choice, and IE-only sites exist because IE doesn't follow standards).

It's Embrace, Extend and Extinguish all over again; a standard anticompetitive Microsoft tactic. Take a standard, say, e-mail; then "innovate on top of it" in a proprietary and closed way that is difficult for others to implement and preferably patented; then use the dominant market position in the desktop to push the new "innovation" and thereby stifle competition in a different market segment. This hasn't happened to email yet, but is to some extent happening to the Web (although thankfully it didn't really work, but ActiveX was an attempt to do exactly this).

I suggest you read at least http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070923170905803 which explains the previous ruling by the European Court of First Instance (in the Samba case) in some detail, and maybe also http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20071213104023255 which explains the Opera case better than I can.

Thinking about it may be harder than dismissing it all with just "the EU hates Microsoft", but it may be worth it nonetheless. :)
#2 /* 2 years, 3 months ago */
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you as well, and at least partially agree with Opera. Unbundling IE would be a great boon for everyone - I've always desired to have an easier method of removing Internet Explorer from Windows, and think it is well in my rights to do so. Forcing a browser onto my system that is integrated with the operating system is an abuse of their power as the maker of both, in my opinion.

I don't, however, think Microsoft should be forced to implement any standards in their browser. Would it be a good idea? Yes, definitely.
#3 — Author comment /* 2 years, 3 months ago */
Thanks for your replies, guys.
then makes that browser behave sufficiently differently from standards and other browsers to force (strongly motivate) users to use it over competing products
Two things here. IE has been bundled for yonks and it's always been a standards whore. These aren't two things MS sprung on users after they used a perfectly nice version of IE for some time. Secondly, how does IE being a dog entice users to keep using it? Or, moreover, how does it stop people moving to other browsers?

What difference would any of this make anyway? Look at the the figures! There are still more IE6 users than IE7 users, well after a year of it being on Windows Update. Most of those are probably virus-ridden computers running illegal FCKetc-product-key installs that have no access to Windows Update - something that is a far bigger issue than web standards; and remember, I'm saying this as a web-developer.

Yes old IE installs do mean we're behind in being able to advance web standards, but how is poor updating, piracy and user stupidity Microsoft's fault? They're fixing it in their latest software but they can't force IE7 onto an XP machine with auto-updates turned off.

Oh but you are probably right that there is legal merit for upholding the complaint. I'm no lawyer, I'm just not sure that fighting monopolies by interfering with a private company is the correct way about dealing with either issue here. This should be left to the "market" forces - something that is already happening with reasonable success. Otherwise Microsoft is being punished because their operating system (and ActiveX, .NET, etc) is fashionable. You called it smothering the competition but the users are partly to blame for adopting closed standards.

And Vista, as I said, does allow you to remove IE enough that no program is allowed to spawn it (with requests being relayed onto your replacement browser). It's much, much better than XP was in that respect.

So what action, if you ruled in favour of Opera, would you take? Unbundle (like WMP) and leave users with no ability to surf the net without getting something downloaded elsewhere (or CD/DVD/etc), or would you open the gates to the chaos that is forcing them to include alternatives? Seriously, chaps, both answers make things considerably worse for users.
#4 /* 2 years, 3 months ago */
Well, the European approach seems to be to not leave it to the market but to take action. Leaving it to the market just doesn't work (this is especially apparent if you look at the history of the telecom markets, where in countries with powerful regulators real competition has emerged or is emerging, whereas in other countries where the regulator has been, shall we say, lenient with the historical monopoly, the market situation is a lot more like it was ten years ago, with users paying more for less). The problem with a monopoly is that because it is a monopoly, it has such control over the market that normal market processes can't eliminate it and corrective action must come from the outside.

About timing: sure, IE has always been a standards whore, and especially during the IE4 days, many sites just didn't work with any other browser as a result of this. Opera isn't brining this action now because they suddenly realized what was going on; I think they're doing it now because the previous case showed them that it's possible to prevail over Microsoft in a European antitrust court.

"How does IE being a dog entice users to keep using it?", you ask, but I think I already told you: by being so widely used that web developers take pains to implement its misfeatures, breaking other browsers in doing so. In 2001 (I think it was in 2001) Microsoft apparently deliberately broke msn.com so that it didn't work with any browser other than IE. This is the essence of Embrace, Extend and Extinguish: make a product that implements a standard but extends it in incompatible, proprietary, undocumented ways, and then offer services that are only accessible with these proprietary features.

Hell, Microsoft even is (or was) a W3C member, so they could have added their extensions to the standards if they wanted, but they didn't. Why, do you think? Because then the other browsers would have worked largely the same way and IE would have been forced to compete on a more or less even playing field. By adding proprietary extensions that the others didn't implement and making sure that some high-profile sites used those extensions, they tried to lock their users into their browser. As I understand it, this practice is illegal in the EU. As the first Halloween memorandum, probably still available from www.opensource.org, puts it: "[Linux] can win while protocols are a commodity. [...] by de-commoditizing protocols, we raise the bar and change the rules of the game. [...] deny entry into the market [...]" (I quote from memory so I can't vouch for accuracy). Change "Linux" to "alternative browsers" and "protocols" to "web standards".

Even if, as you say, it's also the users' fault (it sure is: if nobody bought Microsoft products, there wouldn't be a monopoly), the question whether Microsoft's market behaviour was illegal or not can be asked, and answered by a court. If you shoot me with a firearm I give you, you're just as guilty of murder or at least manslaughter...

Bringing up the issue of the many illegal copies of Windows is a red herring. This isn't about large-scale copyright infringement; it's about anticompetitive behaviour on Microsoft's part, behaviour that caused financial damage to Opera (or so they seem to claim), and which I believe caused an incalculable amount of damage to the world economy at large (think of all the wasted web developer hours). It's also not about making a technical difference in the sense you seem to mean. This isn't legislation, this is litigation: Opera believes Microsoft broke the law and wants the court to enjoin Microsoft from doing it again. If they prevail (which will take years), we'll see if the eventual ruling has any far-reaching consequences that make the world a better place for all; you seem to be saying that if the case were over tomorrow, nothing would immediately change, which makes the case somehow irrelevant. I think you should take a longer perspective: in my opinion, just sending the message that It Is Wrong To Abuse Your Monopoly and driving it home with a hefty fine would be worth it, but actually compelling Microsoft (and, by inference, all major vendors) to adhere to open standards, now, _that_ would really be something.

Unfortunately, I doubt that even if the court ruled this way, Microsoft would comply. They would try to obstruct, stall, delay and so on as we've seen in the Samba case. As far as I know, they still haven't provided the documentation the court ordered them to provide years ago, so they're still in violation, but they haven't paid the fine either...

As for unbundling, I think there is a third way: ship Windows with a minimal HTTP client that can fetch a URL and save/run the file fetched. The start menu could contain a "Download and install web browser" icon where the user is prompted to enter the name of a browser vendor, and the HTTP client would then be used to fetch http://browser.vendor.com/arch_OS_language.msi or something. This could be generalized and extended in many ways, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Ps. please consider using a "fluid" website design. If I enlarge the font enough to make it easy to read, the site starts to fall apart. I also have two wide vertical blue stripes on the sides that contain no useful content. The site utilises less than half my screen's width to display the useful content (the text). I use Firefox; in Opera, "zooming" would sort of work but the bitmaps would become ugly.
#5 — Author comment /* 2 years, 3 months ago */
Leaving it to the market just doesn't work
Look at the relative IE/Firefox/Safari market shares. A couple of years ago IE had a 98-99% piece of the pie and they're already down to the 50-70% range (depending on who's statistics you read). That is amazingly good progress; all brought about without government interference.

Microsoft apparently deliberately broke msn.com so that it didn't work with any browser other than IE
I think they only targeted Opera but it was a pretty scummy thing. However, the method, both times wasn't through some HTML feature, rather through user-agent-string-sniffing and redirecting the browser. The reason they gave was Opera not supporting something or other, but once Opera implemented their user-agent-string-changer, everything worked fine, proving that Microsoft were just being arseholes.

That (^^^) is a tactic I see as anti-competitive. I think they also put code into Frontpage (their "web-authoring" tool of crapness) which did the same to Netscape a lot earlier. There was a lawsuit around that too. The point I'm making is although MS have promoted the use of IE through dodgy methods, IE isn't the conduit of abuse (in these cases, anyway). Stopping the default installation of IE would not necessarily stop MS (or others) doing exactly the same in the future.

it's about anticompetitive behaviour on Microsoft's part, behaviour that caused financial damage to Opera (or so they seem to claim), and which I believe caused an incalculable amount of damage to the world economy at large (think of all the wasted web developer hours).
Well, again, IE is improving (IE7 almost just works) and Opera has its own, unique non-standard loopholes that require developers to hack things. They all use different rendering engines written by different people with different opinions of how things should work and look - slating MS&IE for their part won't fix this issue.

As for unbundling, I think there is a third way: ship Windows with a minimal HTTP client that can fetch a URL and save/run the file fetched.
That would work but say your a novice computer user and you've just started your new Windows Vista SP2 PC and you're given a list of 140 browsers to pick from. How do you choose what's best? Who chooses what makes that list? How is it ordered?

Whatever happens, you need to educate users to know which browser to go for and by the time you've done that, they're already capable enough of downloading and installing the best browser on their own.

Re: the design, The graphics at the top would be nigh on impossible in a fluid layout without a 200+kb image tax. Proper zooming is coming in the next version of Firefox =)
#6 /* 2 years, 3 months ago */
About IE's market share going down: that only happened because Microsoft temporarily lost interest in developing and pushing its browser after IE5 I'd say, probably exactly because apparently they had reached their goal and dominated the market (a monopoly isn't motivated to "innovate"). IE6, as I recall, didn't add any "exciting new" proprietary features; I'm not sure about IE7. Had Microsoft continued in the same spirit as before, I believe their market share would still be close to 95% (depending also on how you measure it, of course).

It is still sensible for a court to declare that the anticompetitive behaviour is anticompetitive and to fine Microsoft because:

a) it would hopefully cause them to at least think once, not twice, before doing it again;

b) it would set a precedent (for whatever that's worth) and send the same message to other vendors: Don't Do This;

c) if Microsoft were to do it again, it'd be a second offense which would presumably result in a higher fine;

d) the procedure, methods of proof and so on can be tested and applied with greater ease the next time, which will raise the willingness of other wronged parties to bring suits against Microsoft.

As I already said, I think Opera brought this suit now, years after the offense took place, because the Samba case showed them that there is hope if you persevere.

"Stopping the default installation of IE would not necessarily stop MS (or others) doing exactly the same in the future." -- that's not the intended purpose of unbundling the browser from the OS. Being forced to pay damages and a substantial fine is what's supposed to stop MS from doing something similar again. The purpose of unbundling (which I see as secondary in this case, BTW) is to even the playing field in the sense that users would have to make a choice when they install a browser. Sometimes, choice has to be forced on the consumer to create real competition.

Also, as I already said, if Opera, a browser with a small user base, doesn't follow standards, that's not a big deal; it's not an abuse of market power because there is no market power to abuse. Not following standards is only illegal if someone with significant market power does it, and then only if they do it with the purpose of further expanding their market share or leveraging that significant market power to gain an unfair advantage in a different market. As long as Opera is a niche browser, it can legally disregard standards completely, because all that will accomplish is to hurt their own business. If someone with 70+% market share does it, that's a completely different thing.

The issue that needs fixing is not that all browsers implement the standards in slightly different ways. The issue that needs fixing is that Microsoft is deliberately deviating from (in their words, "innovating on top of") some standards in order to gain an unfair advantage. The court will have to determine whether this has actually taken place and whether it was against the law, but as I understand it, this is the allegation Opera is making and this is what they seek relief from by attempting to have the court compel Microsoft to follow the standards.

About downloading the first browser: there are many technical details that can be implemented in many different ways. I don't think it's worthwhile to go into this here.

However, I believe "educating" a sufficient number of users to make a significant impact on the market isn't feasible. There are too many who want their computer to "just work" (which is of course completely understandable), and if it ships with a default browser, they'll just use that. Because the OS it ships with is mostly Windows (for whatever reason), and Windows ships with IE, they'll use IE - and voila, Microsoft leveraged its dominant market position in the desktop OS market to gain an unfair advantage in a different market: the browser market. If there is no default browser, the user is forced to make a choice, and Microsoft is not automatically at an advantage.

Re: the design - I think content is (or at any rate should be) more important than eye candy, so I'd rather lose the graphics but make the layout fluid. :)
#7 — Author comment /* 2 years, 3 months ago */
Well you're sort of saying what I'm feeling -- removing IE punishes MS for past mistakes/evils/etc; but it doesn't fix the issue.

IE4 and IE5 were complete both garbage. They were trying to undermine Netscape and any other would-be browsers by forcing developers to cater for just IE and if they wanted other browsers, they had to produce two sites. That was a horrible era of the internet that I hope we never come across ever again, but these are all things in the past that even Microsoft has managed to grow through.

IE6 and IE6, as you say, have been actively trying to adhere to standards. They're not completely there, mainly because MS have been trying to keep as much backwards compatibility as possible (no company would dare upgrade if their intranet might not work without 3 months of expensive reprogramming). The "market" is what's changed this. Designers aren't designing for IE anymore; rather Firefox or Safari, and more people than ever validate and check multiple browsers. So this isn't something that needed legal intervention to effect, the market saw a gap for a better browser, Opera/Mozilla supplied, IE started playing catch-up.

About downloading the first browser: there are many technical details that can be implemented in many different ways. I don't think it's worthwhile to go into this here.
It's pretty significant because what you're talking about is the requirement to educate people about browsers; something that would fix things but could be done without forcing a company to do something with its own property, against its will.

God forbid that Apple actually manage to wrestle the home-user monopoly from MS, do you think they'll be any better? They're run but one of the most dictatorial CEOs in the technology marketplace.

This is just something that MS need to fix. not something that the EC needs to force down their throats. User/webdev demand is significant enough. It's already forced it to come a long way.
#8 /* 2 years, 3 months ago */
Well you're sort of saying what I'm feeling -- removing IE punishes MS for past mistakes/evils/etc; but it doesn't fix the issue.


No. Removing IE doesn't "punish" MS -- it removes, or at least diminishes Microsoft's ability to leverage its desktop dominance to gain market share in the browser market by unfair means.

What would "punish" MS is if they had to pay damages, which is of course also a possibility. Just because they broke the law a few years ago and are not breaking it this minute doesn't mean they can't be held accountable for past transgressions, if any. If I beat up my neighbour every day for five years, and bully him into not reporting me to the police, then get bored and leave him alone, I can still be punished for my crimes a few years later (probably not indefinitely, but a few years later yes). Why should Microsoft be an exception?

I'm also not sure which "issue" you're talking about here. There are several issues:

  • That Microsoft, by bundling a browser with its OS, gains an unfair advantage over competing browser vendors. Removing IE from Windows would fix this issue.
  • That Microsoft used to pursue an Embrace, Extend & Extinguish policy with its browsers (granting that this seems to have subsided somewhat). Removing IE from Windows would indirectly help fix this issue, because it would help diminish IE's market share in the long term by forcing it to compete with other products on equal terms.
  • That the business of Opera was harmed by Microsoft's alleged unfair practices. Removing IE from Windows in the future obviously can't fix this, but, theoretically, damages can.



IE4 and IE5 were complete both garbage. They were trying to undermine Netscape and any other would-be browsers by forcing developers to cater for just IE and if they wanted other browsers, they had to produce two sites. That was a horrible era of the internet that I hope we never come across ever again, but these are all things in the past that even Microsoft has managed to grow through.


Again: if I've given up beating my neighbour for whatever reason, should I be allowed to walk free without answering for my past misdemeanours?


IE6 and IE6, as you say, have been actively trying to adhere to standards. They're not completely there, mainly because MS have been trying to keep as much backwards compatibility as possible (no company would dare upgrade if their intranet might not work without 3 months of expensive reprogramming). The "market" is what's changed this. Designers aren't designing for IE anymore; rather Firefox or Safari, and more people than ever validate and check multiple browsers.


I don't have enough factual knowledge about IE6+'s standards compliance, so I'll accept your assessment of the facts here. However, also note that Microsoft isn't able to EEE at the moment because it doesn't have a large enough market share; more unfair competition may yet increase their market share to the point where EEE becomes feasible. Making it apparent that EEE is illegal would go a long way towards preventing further such attempts, not only in the browser market but also across the IT product spectrum.


So this isn't something that needed legal intervention to effect, the market saw a gap for a better browser, Opera/Mozilla supplied, IE started playing catch-up.


We got lucky because Microsoft became complacent and neglected the browser market for a while. They won't make that mistake again. Had Microsoft not all but stopped browser development in the IE5 era but pushed more proprietary extensions more quickly, I don't think the competition would have been quite so successful.

what you're talking about is the requirement to educate people about browsers; something that would fix things but could be done without forcing a company to do something with its own property, against its will.


I don't agree with you. Educating people about browsers would help fix the issue, sure, but it's unfeasible (who should do it? how should they do it? who should pay for it? how long will it take? etc.). Also, it has no bearing on the question "is it legal to abuse a dominant market position in one market to gain an advantage in a different market?". No matter how educated or ignorant users are, Microsoft's practice of bundling IE with Windows may still turn out to be illegally anticompetitive. The court will have to decide whether this is the case or not. It's irrelevant whether Microsoft wants to comply with the law or not; they have to, because it's the law (or they can also stop doing business in the EU, of course -- it's their call). Again, take a different example, say, the Scottish national soft drink IRN BRU ("Iron Brew"). As far as I know, they're also selling it in Canada; however, because it's orange coloured, they have to decaffeinate it, because under Canadian law, only dark-coloured beverages may contain caffeine. You can argue whether the law has merit or is sensible, but if you want to sell IRN BRU in Canada, you have to decaffeinate it. Just because it's "against your will" doesn't make you exempt from the law. The situation is more difficult in the case of Microsoft because the law is less plain, at least to a layman; this is why the court will have to determine whether Microsoft violates it or not. But Microsoft's generic unwillingness to comply doesn't really enter the picture (specific unwillingness, after the court has ruled, is a different matter and is punished separately).


God forbid that Apple actually manage to wrestle the home-user monopoly from MS, do you think they'll be any better?


What ever gave you the impression I thought any given company would be better as a monopoly? Monopolies are bad. This is why we have laws to regulate them.
#9 /* 2 years, 3 months ago */
You are both right. Except for Andras.

By placing a browser in their OS Package, they are servicing me. (lets completely ignore the fact that i would just go and download IE7 anyway) I get internet access, and I don’t need to download anything before hand. By integrating it into their operating system, they have created a useful tool for me. It isn’t because it is there, but it’s because it is there when it is needed. Vista's uptake has been significant. Microsoft released figures showing that it is being picked up faster than XP. Now it is a fully featured OS. It comes with a Browser. Back in say, 95, a Web Browser was just window dressing (*snicker) and quite obviously placed there to Decapitate Netscape. But to be quite honest, Netscape required decapitation. Freetards all over the place love what people all over the place have done with the Mozilla source, and it has throttled internet standards greatly.

If Microsoft didn’t kill Netscape, they would own the internet, and it would be quite a bit worse than it is now. (ewww, paying for a browser?)

But I digress

With XP (and Vista), Internet Use was at an all time high. (It’s always at an all time high - beside the point) IE 6 was loud and proud; it managed to find a middle ground between IE4-5 (ubar shit, but lots of sites made for it) and current gen web standards. This is its purpose. (No other browser to my knowledge does this, however I have heard good things of sea monkey)

It is now not just a program, it is an OS Operation. Leopard ships with safari, Windows ships with IE6/7. It is now a commonly recognized tool, that an OS must have.

To be frank, ever since J. Allard woke Billy Gates up about the internet, and cemented Microsoft’s interest in it forever, the web has become a central part of Daily Operations. Not having a browser, installed to begin with, is just, Stupid. Hell, now that Outlook is Good (yay 2007) A windows desktop is all about web functionality. Without a browser of some kind, it would just suck. MS under your proposal may as well just start Making Direct X work on 3.1 because there would no longer be a need for their continued pursuit towards Web Enhancements.

Concept: A lot of speculation has been floating around that Google may make an OS. Now, Google is hugely popular, and looking at the success of the Google toolbar (people downloaded it simply because Google told them to) it could have a tremendous impact in the OS market (however I think its baloney, they don’t want MS mad just annoyed) So you are telling me, that if I Download this (through my web browser) and install it. It should (instead of having pre installed Opera or Firefox or some Google browser) pop up, and give me the choice of hundreds of browsers I have no idea about that I then have to download again? People would think they were mad.

That was just a thought experiment but I believe its point is valid.

Now let’s look at this from a business perspective.

When a company buys a hundred computers, preinstalled with windows (saves a lot of time so they don’t have to pay their own tech staff to ghost the whole network. It is easier. Then on top of that, when they go to use the computer, having a pre installed browser saves the company time and money. Then there is tech support. The same people who do the OS tech support can, in the companies eyes do all tech support for the browser. Which to be honest is the real reason corporations purchase volume licenses of windows, they aren’t buying the OS they are buying the support for the OS. So you want them, in the case of an emergency, send their tech staff trolling through internet forums to find user based help data. When they could easily get MS to do it for them.

I am sorry, but what you are proposing makes no sense. Microsoft has never cared about a fine (there simply isn’t one large enough) and to be terribly honest, the EU isn’t a big enough customer for them to take real note.
So they aren’t going to be “Punished” even if the Prima donna Opera guys do succeed.

“Again: if I've given up beating my neighbor for whatever reason, should I be allowed to walk free without answering for my past misdemeanors?”


You are assuming Microsoft has beaten anyone up. Opera also releases their browser for free. Hell I keep a copy of it just to test web standards on the fly. No one has lost money. This makes less sense than some of the stupidest copyright cases I have heard of. Microsoft has pressed IT forward for years.

That Microsoft, by bundling a browser with its OS, gains an unfair advantage over competing browser vendors. Removing IE from Windows would fix this issue.

Excuse me? How can someone gain an unfair advantage over a free product? Especially one that sort of stinks anyway, and has no real right to be preloaded onto a Microsoft operating system, as Microsoft didn’t code it.
That Microsoft used to pursue an Embrace, Extend & Extinguish policy with its browsers (granting that this seems to have subsided somewhat). Removing IE from Windows would indirectly help fix this issue, because it would help diminish IE's market share in the long term by forcing it to compete with other products on equal terms.

Oh I am sorry, didn’t anyone tell you. Microsoft is a company. They are brilliant people, so I guess there is some expectation that they won’t win all the time, just to play fair, but not in the real world. They are a company, and they won, and they like to make money. So Open Source fan boys like you get something to complain about. Yay
That the business of Opera was harmed by Microsoft's alleged unfair practices. Removing IE from Windows in the future obviously can't fix this, but, theoretically, damages can.

A. What Business?
B. Damages? Microsoft made the most it’s ever made this year.
C. Removing IE would just make Windows Defunct. Perhaps it would make some of you out of touch Open Source lovers sleep a bit better at night, but the reality of it is it would inconvenience many more people who use Microsoft products. Sorry but I like them better.
#10 /* 2 years, 3 months ago */
"If Microsoft didn’t kill Netscape, they would own the internet, and it would be quite a bit worse than it is now. (ewww, paying for a browser?)"

Do you really think Netscape would have owned the internet? Do you not think that there would have been legitimate competitors in the burgeoning browser market who would have fostered.. ahem.. open market competition? We probably would have had much better browser development in the ensuing years. Instead we got IE bundled on every machine which then allowed MS to let it ferment for years without progress. All of that time could have been spent developing better browser technologies through a competitive market, moving the whole thing forward.

"Freetards all over the place love what people all over the place have done with the Mozilla source, and it has throttled internet standards greatly."

You are free to keep giving Microsoft $400+ dollars for something that is available for nothing. And then of course you're also welcome to shell out several hundred dollars more for software that should have come with the OS in the first place to make it usable. In a free world you are allowed to do that. You can't (or shouldn't) legislate against blind stupidity.

While I don't think Opera's lawsuit is terribly useful. I also don't think it's completely without merit. It is MS and IE that have stifled progress all of these years.

I'm not that worried about Microsoft. They are flailing at the moment - clutching for straws as so much stuff passes them by. If the free software world is such a non-issue, then why does MS spend so much time complaining about it?

I'm glad to see Apple doing well at the moment - at least two commerical entities creates some sort of competitive market, but they're both doomed in the end at least on the commercial software end of things. As free and open source software becomes more viable and continues to proliferate both in the personal and commercial computing spaces I think it's only inevitable that MS and Apple will fail. We're not talking two years, or five years, it may take ten or twenty, but their model just doesn't make any sense in the long term. If people can produce (and are willing to produce) free software for nothing and the tools to create it cost nothing, it just doesn't make sense to spend billions making it and selling it for hundreds of dollars.

"Removing IE would just make Windows Defunct. Perhaps it would make some of you out of touch Open Source lovers sleep a bit better at night, but the reality of it is it would inconvenience many more people who use Microsoft products. Sorry but I like them better."

I don't care if Windows removes IE. It wouldn't make me sleep any better. There is nothing that Microsoft has done technology-wise in the last 5 years that should make any free or open-source advocate uneasy. They have produced an OS that is over-priced, under-baked, terribly inefficient and saddled with crippling DRM. You are free to like Windows stuff better. It's just good that you know that there is an alternative. As long as more and more people become aware that there are alternatives then all is well.
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